Interview: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Learning, Education, and Technology

Last week I had the pleasure of interviewing Neil deGrasseTyson. We talked about science literacy and the tremendous impact that it willhave on the future of work and the American economy. We also talked about thecritical role curiosity plays in learning. We recorded the interview and havemade it available via an online podcast.

After we stopped recording for the podcast, wecontinued talking and exploring his thoughts on learning and education. Here’sa transcript of the conversation.

Default expectations

DK:One of the challenges I feel people in the field of workplace learning andperformance face is the baggage we all carry with us from our time in school.We’re conditioned to expect learning to look a certain way, with a teacherdelivering information to students who absorb it and get tested. Executivesexpect that, trainers default to that, and workers look for it because itmatches their expectation of what “learning” should look like. I’m very curious—ifyou removed that baggage, what does learning—real and powerful learning—looklike to you?

NdGT: I don’t have a silver bulletthere. But I can tell you that just because it worked when you were a kiddoesn’t mean that’s the best way to do it today. There are many experimentsthat were conducted in the schools where the parents didn’t understand what washappening between the teacher and the kid and the lesson plan and the syllabus,and they rejected it outright because the learning was different. I’m notcertain in many of the cases I saw that the parent invested enough time andenergy to judge whether that was not as good for the children orotherwise. 

We areso quick to characterize education as, “How much do you know?” when alot of frontier efforts in education are emphasizing “How much can youfigure out?” You cannot test what you can figure out in an easy multiple-choiceformat where you say “I got 90% because I know more than you know.”That’s the traditional way this has always been carried on and the “A” studentsalways get high scores because they retain the most, they have better memory,and they probably even have better study habits.

I thinkwe’re ready for some kind of shift in the educational system that will comecloser to how people need to function in life and what makes a person successfulin life. Other than winning in the TV game show Jeopardy, storing a largebody of knowledge within you that you have random access to does not tend to bethe person that becomes the head of institutions or the great managers or thegreat problem solvers. There’s something else going on that is not nurtured inschool. I don’t have the silver bullet on how to put that into the school, butI know it’s missing and I know it needs to be there.

The problem of transfer to the job

DK:Sometimes it seems the context around why we’re learning something is lost. Weretain the facts, but we’re not able to apply it when we get to the workplace.That seems to be a gap.

NdGT: Yes, exactly. And by the waythere are some things you learn where the act of learning itself becomes aneducational experience, like if you write a research paper. There’s not onlyjust what you learn, but you had to organize information and make coherent sentencesout of it. So there’s a lot of things you do in school that accrue inother ways to your talent and enlightenment. But there’s so much that doesnot, and that worries me. These are precious hours that we spend that we willnever get back, unless you continue on to educate yourself after the time wherethe law says you don’t have to.

How technology contributes to learning

DK:Speaking of learning, there are a number of different ways that you personallycontribute to the learning of others. In addition to more traditional modelslike a classroom-style lecture, you often use technology to enhance and createlearning opportunities. Obviously there are expensive hi-tech options like theHayden Planetarium, but there’re also examples that are easily accessible toany organization, like your use of podcasts for StarTalk, videos on YouTube,contributing to the curriculum of online courses, and even something as simpleand informal as your Twitter feed. What role do you see technology playing inthe future of how people learn and/or are educated?

NdGT: That’s a great question.Let’s take the Twitter feed as an example. Who would have thought ten years agothat one could deliver science in 140-character strings? I realized—how longhave I had a Twitter account … going on five years now—I realized, not at thebeginning (it took me about a year to figure this out) that I have a lot ofthoughts during the day that are uniquely conceived through the lens of ascientist and educator. When I say uniquely, I mean, I have these thoughts, andsurely educator and scientific colleagues of mine have these thoughts, andthey’re just little snippets—they’re like thought fragments if you will—butrealizing that a Twitter posting marries perfectly into that topic, intothat thought format, and I said, “Let me just share this with thepublic,” otherwise it just gets wasted on me. The public stronglyresonated with it. These were little observations about the intersection ofscience and culture and life and society. 

So here’sa Twitter feed where people are accustomed to reading what their favoritecelebrity had for dinner or where they went on vacation. But if in that mediumyou can hand them a tidbit, a cosmic tidbit, then you are greeting yourstudents, audience, listeners, or followers … you’re meeting them on theirown turf. That’s got to be better than saying “OK, time for you to come tome, and get your lesson plan.” So what social media as well as the rest of technology has done is toallow science and the STEM fields in general to reach you on your own landscapeof life. I think that’s a very promising sign for the future of scienceliteracy in the country and in the world. 

Afterword

I love Dr. Tyson’s positioning ofeducation as, “How much can you figure out?” I think that speaks to a shift inorganizational learning, as we are increasingly focusing on problem solving andperformance rather than just what people know.

I also was pleased to hear him placeemphasis on the informal ways we all learn, and how technology is creating newopportunities for this natural form of learning to take place.

My conversation with Dr. Tyson leaves meeven more excited for his keynote session that kicks off this year’s DevLearnConference and Expo. It’s sure to be a fascinating discussion as he paints theconnections between science literacy and the future of work, and it’s theperfect way to set the foundation for exploring the new learning universe atDevLearn.

Editor’s Note

Neil deGrasse Tyson will keynote TheeLearning Guild’s DevLearn 2014 Conference & Expo, October29 – 31, in Las Vegas, Nevada. Interest in STEM education—science, technology, engineering, andmathematics—is on the rise. In this fascinating opening keynote, Dr. NeildeGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium and host of the televisionshow Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey, will explore how and why STEM iscritical not just in the education of young people, but also in impacting thelandscape of today’s workplace. Dr. Tyson will discuss how strong foundationsin science, technology, engineering, and mathematics can be leveraged inorganizational training, and how that foundation can be expanded upon toempower workers to solve business-related problems—even problems they havenever before seen.

About DevLearn 2014

As technologies continue to emerge andadvance, new worlds of possibilities are opening up for learning anddevelopment. But new technologies also bring new challenges—and newexpectations—for driving learning and performance. To keep up, you need tounderstand what’s possible today, as well as what’s coming next. Discovertomorrow’s learning technologies, strategies, and practices today. Join thecommunity of industry pioneers that is exploring the new learning universe anddefining the future of training and development.

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